|
|
Prove God exists...
-
7/1/2004 6:24:00 AM
|
|
|
Quote from gadimus: it is about trashing beliefs of others Maybe thats the way this thread has turned out in your opinion, but the reason it was started was because I am honestly completely baffled by the idea of believing in any sort of higher power and I was hoping someone with a religion could shed some light on how and why they believe what they believe. Don't be so quick to judge.
|
|
-
-
7/2/2004 4:37:00 AM
|
|
|
I'm beginning to understand that, like most things relating to religion, this isn't something I'm likely to understand. I could make a point, but I doubt anyone would listen.
|
|
-
-
7/11/2004 7:28:30 AM
|
-
7/21/2004 12:09:20 AM
|
-
Mr. Neil
-
-
-
Joined on 02-22-2004
-
Planet Earth, Galaxy Milky Way
-
Posts 102
-
-
|
That's why it's so frustrating to talk to theists sometimes, because they say they want to debate, but when you put their beliefs under the microscope, they get offended. What do you think a debate is? It's two sides criticizing each other. People always have this negative connotation attached to criticism, but criticism is the way to truth. It strips away error, because you're actually looking for the mistakes. If religion can't even hold up to criticism, then why should we even take it seriously? To me, that sends up a flag that something's wrong. It's utterly useless to argue that the other side is "attacking your beliefs" in a topic about beliefs. Appeals to sympathy aren't going to win you points. What you should be looking for, instead, is logical errors in your opponent's claims, such as using circular arguments or special pleading. If you think debates are silly, then don't debate.
 Comic · Community · DeviantArt
|
|
-
7/22/2004 12:59:03 PM
|
|
|
Wow, didn't think I was going to post anything in this topic. I felt like I've heard it all seen it all bla bla bla. Although I did go through almost all the posts believe it or not (after 4 pages though, some got skimmed, sorry!) I guess I will start with my current beliefs, vaguely at least. I was raised to believe in God. Hell, I still capitalize his name, right? Anyway, I went through a lot in my life trying to decide if what I was raised as was true. After much thought and prayer I initally decided that my belief system was the only one that could make sense if there was a god. Finally I decided that there was one and that I was raised correctly. Hurray! Then I suddenly grew old enough to emotionally realize the vastness of death and wasn't sure I'd live after I died so now I'm kinda back where I started, or at least sent back quite a ways. Anyway... to believe in god you have to accept certain (and/or explain) things: 1-He does not show himself, often at least (hopefully for good reason) 2-There is a reason why we're here 3-There is a reason why people in the past were so confused about simple facts of science when they had super-being to tell them stuff 4-God likes his followers to be small in number and "a strange and curious people" (misqouted bible verse-been a while) Well, I could go on and on as to what I believe the answers to these points are, I was going to ignore my (now potential) beliefs but I guess I will summarize them even though the most clever of you might figger out what I am. 1) Earth is a testing ground to see how we would react to these conditions. A exact knowledge of god would ruin the conditions and remove our ability to make our own decisions to certain degrees (depending on how present he actually was. Note that he was present before "the Fall" and Adam & Eve obviously had SOME freedom, although much more limited) 2) The reason why we're here on earth is summarized up above. And I do believe that present life is the only real concern of this hullaballo 3) Whether or not god created first man, the earlier men were not ready to believe in a planet that revolved around the sun, were not ready for a god that may have created life through evolution ( ), or many other facts of science. Divine inspiration through his chosen "prophets" were written for its audience, you could say. 4) Well, I don't believe that everyone who disbelieves God are outright going to hell, so I can deal with this. I'm not certain, but I believe it's certainly possible God used evolution to create life. So what? And if he didn't I'll just look slightly less silly when the altered theory of life comes out in several hundred years (although I think they're at least close). I do believe that God is a being of science and reasoning, and even though we've gone pretty far, we've still have an infinite ways to go before we could start grasping the absolute truth of science and fact. Anyway, if there is a God, I'm sorry to say this but he obviously wants to be discovered on his own terms. This changes from religion to religion but if you're really interested, go find a few and try it out. If you can't accept this (and I could see why) then by all means be an athiest. God, watching this topic is like watching two missionary groups trying to debate and convert each other-because that's exactly what it is. It's completely the ****ing nature of mankind (peoplekind) to change people into their frame of thinking. Maybe some of you believe you have ideas worth converting others too, and maybe you're right, but lets not beat around the bush about this one. And yes, people from both sides have been ***holes and condescending toward each other. Whatever the reasoning behind it, that's what I saw. Oh, and the bible being a part of the world mythology? At least a decade ago it seemed the more we discovered about our religious past, the more it seemed to come from one place-people on seperate continents somehow believing similarly for no good reason. As a christian, I can "cope" with that just by stating there is a good reason they believe a little similarly... Well, those were my thoughts. Not really an explanation for the existance of God, but mostly some thoughts on how the topic must be approached with any sense.
|
|
-
7/22/2004 4:25:01 PM
|
|
|
Lol... but with my previous post I am trying to change people's frame of thinking... so that's a little pompous. Sorry fellas.
|
|
-
7/29/2004 3:34:22 PM
|
-
Jenn
-
-
-
Joined on 03-17-2004
-
Las Vegas
-
Posts 3,955
-
-
|
hmm I didn't want to come in here because I assumed it was going to be christian bashing, but now that I see that it's not pure bashing , I'll say what I want to say. As a person who was going to train to be a pastor here's what I've learned from many different perspectives on "God" God is a supreme entity. Now most say that it's impossible to be what he's supposed to be (All knowing, All powerful, and Everywhere) But is it really? I mean why can't you be all three of those? Maybe you as a human being can't be these things but if something has the ability to create our universe, then there a heck of a lot superior to you/me. And I don't know where to find it because Richard's ignoring me, but the creation of life is supposedly one in a billion. And I bet it's even greater to find life that actually survives a few millenia. Also on the same note that it's "impossible" to be what he is (forgiving, loving, just, vengeful, etc) once again I'll say that you can't but God's better then you so he can. Now to go from stuff I've learned from my friends who aren't followers of the faith. Maybe God doesn't exist, but if he doesn't thats actually saddening, because it means that when you die you're just dead. Maybe there's not just God, since it says many times that to just worship Him above all "gods". Now if you ask many christians they'll answer that it means things we put in front of God become our god. But I actually believe that there is a small collection of people under him, maybe the angels are actually lower deity's and God just doesn't want you to put them in front of him. Uhm it's kind of a rambling post, but there you have it. My post.
"OOOOH, SORREEEE!! I only created THE UNIVERSE!!!" - God
|
|
-
8/7/2004 10:47:28 AM
|
|
|
First, a handful of Blogs from Squidi.net, written by Sean Howards, which I found relevant. ---------- |
What is it about religion that makes perfectly sane, educated people and turns them into completely blithering morons? Seriously! And why is it a social feux pas to call them on it? It's like, you graduated from COLLEGE!! By all measure accepted by our society, we can consider you an educated man. So, exactly which physics is it that allows... let's say... 200 species of animals, 2 by 2, to occupy a boat built with the technology of Noah's age, and still remain afloat for 40 days and 40 nights with no visible means of FOOD?! That's STUPID. You know, it's really not God... any god... that I have a problem with. I know why people choose to believe in an all powerful father figure (probably better than they do) and I know why they find comfort and direction. I know how religion can be a powerful social organization which provides moral "laws" to control our society when our government cannot dictate behavior. These are good things. These are GREAT things. I will NEVER say that someone who chooses to believe in a god or gods is stupid. But Holy Crap, do you have to take the Bible so literally? I don't even take the TV Guide literally, and that one's been fact checked by editors. People look to the Bible for all sorts of answers, but unfortunately, don't know the questions. This leads them to apply the Bible to situations where is strictly does not and can not fit without the crowbar of stupidity. The Bible has a very real and special value to, not just people, but our society. Our entire world. But sometimes, it is a square peg in a room of round holes and everyone's got their hammer out. We learned that wiping our ass after taking a dump prevents disease. Hygiene was not something that was all that common back in the day. We learned this fact, which we still use to this very day, from the Chinese. It seems to me, if I were a loving and caring God, and could leave only one manual for daily life behind for my followers, I'd find a way to explain to them why sitting in their own feces is bad for their health. The Bible explains a lot of things that it shouldn't, and strangely, omits a lot of things that it should. Take, for example, its stance on homosexuals - currently a hot topic because of the whole gay marriage thing. It seems to me that the Bible has multiple personalities - almost like it was written by different people during different moral times. One half says, hate homosexuals. Maybe stone them. I don't know. The other half says love everyone, regardless of differences. That leads to internal friction for a lot of people. And the one place that they turn to for answers is exactly the thing causing this friction. So what is one to do? You find someone else to interpret the Bible for you. You could do it yourself, but it is very likely that one is part of a religious community and one has to find a purpose which doesn't alienate the others. So you look towards your preacher. Maybe the Pope. Maybe that fat guy with the white hair on tv every Sunday morning. Who knows - but you stop listening to the Bible and you start listening to a man. The Bible is so convoluted and impossible to digest that no one person can ever understand it without help. You'd think God would've used shorter sentences. That bothers me because you get confused. You may think you follow the Bible, when in fact, you follow some bozo with a megaphone. But you are convinced that you are still following the Bible. Nothing could convince you otherwise. When that guy gets up and tells you to write letters to the local schoolboard to get creationism taught in school, you think you are doing the Bible's work. And your faith makes you think the Bible is infallible, and thus the bozo you follow is equally infallible. That bothers me a lot. I do not mind if you believe in something, but I don't like it when someone tries to force stupidity on me. I am not a Christian, so for me to accept that Christian Creationism is a viable alternative to... let's say... science, then I've received all the stupidity of your belief without the benefits. I know that there is this secret desire to have science validify God in one way or another, but it is wrapped up in an angry and forceful exterior which does less to promote God and more to promote all the worst parts about believing in Him. You aren't making friends. You're making enemies. Anyway, I found a really great webpage which seeks to answer common questions from a standpoint of neither evolution nor creationism, but by the substance and accountability of mainstream science. It's a good site. It's kind of like Snopes. Check it out. |
|
| |
For some reason, I can't finish blogs anymore. I'll get about 2/3 done, and bam, brick wall. I've started three or four blogs since the last one, which, by the way, earned me some quality emails from some very angry people. The popularity (or lack there of) for that religion blog seems based less on what I wrote, but instead on which side you came into the discussion with. It was less to convince anyone (which may be the one thing in this universe which is truly impossible), but just to say some stuff that I thought. As such, nobody was convinced. Which made me start thinking about this kind of stuff. Why is it that someone could be presented with practically irrefutable scientific evidence, but still maintain - even to the point of violence - that a book written at a time when alchemists attempt to turn lead to gold has ANY scientific value at all? Do people want to believe so much that they would prefer ignorance to true enlightenment? Thinking about that, I noticed several other areas where such blinding belief is present. Politics, penis enlargement pills, money making schemes, ghosts, Atkins, diet pills, and a whole other host of things like that. The problem isn't these things in particular. The problem is on the people's end. These things all focus on fundamental desires and self esteem issues that people want to believe work - they NEED to believe it works. They are placebos for the self esteem. Say you are a moderately overweight person, and this aspect of your life has caused much harm to your day to day living. You can't get dates. Other people make fun of your weight. You are insecure to the nth degree. You see a commerical for an electrical belt, which shocks your muscles into exercising - without you haven't to do any work. The infomercial shows hot, bronzed, muscular bodies of people half your age. Forget for a second, that they've got muscles in places that the belt doesn't affect. You want to believe that dream because the alternative is so distasteful. So, you order the belt. The first time you plug it in, your body sweats, causing the belt to short circuit and electrocute you. If you think I'm kidding, I'm not. That really happened. Weight is something that requires knowledge and work to maintain. The fact that exercise is difficult and boring, and your day to day life is too busy to take the time, it is really easy to want to buy into a something-for-nothing plan. I mean, even if exercise is beyond you, that weight problem still controls you. The problem is, it isn't that you believe. That you honestly believe that penis enlargment pills really work. It's that you WANT to believe. Your self esteem is controlling you from behind the scenes to make you feel better about yourself. Even faced with evidence to the alternative, that need to feel okay is more important. Nothing is more important. When it comes to literal interpretations of the Bible - it isn't really about whether the Bible is true or not. It's not, by any scientific and objective measure in existence. That's not really what the debate is about, though it is what the arguments are about. It's because, for some people, to deny the Bible is to deny God. God is such a large part of their very being, not only would living without God leave a hole in their self, it would mean that those many years that they lived with God were a lie. That's okay. You do not have to deny God to interpret the Bible in a different way. You just have to deny the way you have been choosing to honor Him. That's difficult and not something just anyone will jump into. It is a problem at the very core of self esteem, and self esteem has a defense mechanism that could floor King Kong if it wanted. People DIE because of self esteem. The only way to overcome it is to recognize what you are doing and make that choice. We can't make it for you. I imagine it must be a scary prospect, to be alone in this universe. To go into nothingness when you die. To not have those pearly white gates waiting for you, or to have a giant friendly figure who has reason for even the most senseless events. When your friend dies, I imagine it must be comforting to think that he is okay - somewhere out there. It is a fundamental fear that everyone shares... kind of like having a small penis. Religion is a placebo effect. It exists to make you feel better, and for no purpose beyond that. But just like penis enlargement pills, people can take advantage of that need to feel purpose. They can offer sugar pills for $50 and people WILL buy them. They are taking advantage of a tiny hairline fracture in our self esteem, and some people aren't strong enough to fight it. I'm not anti-religion. There are a lot of good things which have come out of it, on a small scale. Things like communities, good deeds, and a direction towards friendship. There are also a lot of bad things... famous bad things. The Inquisition, the crusades, killing abortion doctors, trying to discredit science to gain support for creationism (which may be the worst of the bunch). Some people take advantage of that placebo effect to control you. To blindly follow is built into a very genes. It is a natural consequence of living. The weak willed follow the strong willed. You have to be damn careful of who you follow. A good leader is one who can follow his own agenda while making his followers think it is theirs. All I'm saying is, beware. Quacks and charlatans are out there in force, and it would be a mistake to think that whatever you believe with all your heart doesn't have plenty of both. |
|
| |
Yeah, I've been stirring up trouble with the last two blogs. One guy was really offended that I compared religion to male "enhancement" pills. I saw that one coming. Actually, most of the good and bad emails I've gotten, I saw coming. It kind of worked out exactly how I thought it would. Maybe I'm getting the hang of this public figure thing? Know who you are pissing off and when to piss them off. But at that point, why bother? I think I like to play Devil's Advocate a little too much (in this case, I really was the devil's advocate). I like to challenge other people, frequently against their will, to think outside the box. I don't know why that is. But when someone says "I believe XXX", I can't help but say "No you don't". The thing with being a devil's advocate is not to convince someone of another idea. It is to have them cement their own idea. Many people, myself included, tend to latch on to ideas without really thinking about it. For example, there are several urban legends which I just accepted without question until I found out much later that they weren't true. I'm not the only one, or sites like Snopes, FactCheck.org, or Talk Origins wouldn't exist. The problem lies in the fact that I don't just want people to question whether toilet water flushes in a different direction in the Southern Hemisphere (it doesn't). I want them to question the really important stuff. The stuff which makes them who they are. The thing which separates man from animal. I want people to listen to the words of the song they are humming and wonder what the hell they mean. There are so many answers out there with so few questions. That bothers me. Indeed, what good is an unexamined life? It is worthless. One of the greatest mental gifts that we have is our ability to step back from a situation and examine it with clarity and objectivity. So why is it that so few people bother? Why do people say, "I could do no more than I did" when even a cursory examination would show that statement to be false. The worst part is, many people look towards others to provide the questions. I've seen more than a few webcomic creators plop their comic in front of me and say, "How can I improve this?" If you can't answer that question yourself, then you aren't trying. What they are really asking is, "How can I improve this a lot by doing as little work as possible?" They don't even know the real question they are asking. There is this invisible handshake between parties which agrees that what is said is not what is meant - yet neither can put into words what that handshake means. If you were to ask me, "Do you believe in God?", I could answer that quickly or I could answer that with dozens of pages of text. But that's not the important question. Most people don't realize that. They think that their answer to that question is most important question they could ever answer. People have died because they answered that question, yet ultimately, it means next to nothing. It's not about believing in God. It never has been. Believing in God is, surprisingly, not the single most defining moment in your life. The question is, "Who do you go to for help?" When you have a problem you cannot answer, where do you go to answer it. Who do you ask? What do you learn? How do you do it? For some people, who use God as an excuse, they go the people who taught them that God was important. They go to their parents. They go to their preachers. After those guys have answered enough of your questions for you, you grow into them. You become them - not in every way, but in how you answer questions and, more importantly, in what questions you ask. Believing in God doesn't make you stupid. It's the people you trust that do. I play Devil's Advocate because I don't trust my own conclusions, and because I don't trust them, I constantly question them. Through this questioning, I arrive at a deeper understanding and appreciation of the topic, or I discover the flaw in reason and approach a new answer. Questioning everything is the most important thing I can do or ever have done. That so few people respect questions as much as I do, I find somewhat scary. So, I make them question. Rarely will these questions lead anywhere. You can answer a question a thousand different ways to your satisfaction, frequently in the stupidest possible way. But asking the questions is important, even if the answers aren't. Too many people live an unexamined life. Too many people are looking for answers without understanding the question. Too many people are willing to lay down their lives for religion or patriotism with only the smallest appreciation of what those words really mean. When you strip away the bull****, religion and patriotism are very similar and very important - but not through paying lip service to someone else's ideals. I once saw a bumper sticker which stated, "God is the Answer". I can't help by wonder, to which question? |
|
|
I've been receiving a lot of emails from people trying to explain why they are Christian, and I've been somewhat surprised by how similar these emails run. Basically, it comes down to faith. What is faith? I'll get to that in a second. But first, I want to talk about the fact that one Christian emailed me and said that Mormonism is a cult, while their faith is the one true faith. Obviously, there is a difference. Objectively speaking, there isn't. Mormonism and the Church of England were born from greed instead of idealism, yet the end result is the same. I am cursed with the ability to see connections. I can't look at something without seeing the spider web that extends beyond it and connects it with everything else. And it doesn't matter what name you give something, if it has the same connections and is functionally equivelant, it is the same thing. That's right, the Catholic church is functional equivelant to a a shaman, dressed in bear skins, sitting in a cave throwing bones on the floor to predict the future. Why nobody else sees this, I have no idea. As for faith. It cannot be trust. Faith is the ultimate subjectiveness. The ultimate unreasonableness. It lacks rational thought. It says, no matter what you say, no matter what you show me, no matter how convincing your argument, I'm going to believe this anyway. Nothing can change my mind. Hey, if you want to be a closed minded asshole, go ahead, but don't wrap it up in pretty packaging. Faith has a place for the desperate. No matter how things get, you've always got that anchor to hold you down. You could be living in a cardboard box after your family died in a freak lawnmower accident and still find peace of mind in faith. Sometimes, saying that you'll be unreasonable is the best way to survive, for reason cares not for your own personal feeling of wellness. Nothing cuts deeper than the truth, and faith provides an outlet where you can hide from the truth if needed. Not everybody needs faith. As scathing as the truth may be, there are people who find solace in even that. At the very core of our beings, we need something to believe in. Not blind faith, but a direction and understanding. Most people don't realize that this can change. They seem to be happy to try and be the same person for the extent of their life because changing would be to deny what you were before. Christianity is not special. It has MUCH in common with hundreds of other religions. Judaism is not the first religion, nor is it the last. Much of Christianity, such as the concept of Christmas and Easter are actually borrowed from other religions. Can you imagine? The celebration of the birth of Christ was actually a Roman holiday absorbed into the Christian faith to advertise Christianity to people who would've converted if it were just more "fun". How can you take your beliefs seriously after that? How can you look at Christmas and think that Christianity is somehow more right than Viking religions, long since lost and dismissed? Religion existed before government and before science, so it is not surprising that its chief interest is in these two areas. Religion tends to provide moral guidelines by which the society can best benefit. Many religions include a few extra guidelines for the gain of the church. But when man was dwelling in caves, the leader of the pack was frequently the strongest - and the only way for a new leader to rise to power was through force. As you can imagine, the alpha male thing works in tiny societies with dominance over the other species, but when humans were the weakest creatures in the forest, they needed cunning to survive - strength wasn't enough. Being the strongest did not mean being the smartest, but luckily, the smart ones were... uh... smart. They figured out a way to control those stronger than them by manipulating them through fictional beings. I'm not saying they did this intentionally. They probably believed what they preached. However, the subconscious is an amazing thing and once you start getting chicks, it will find ways to extend your power. Religion BEGAN as a way to control others, in thought and deed, for it is only through controlling others that one develops any sort of power. Eventually, through religion, the social structure of the human social group changed from the strongest to the one with the best leadership capabilities. Notice I didn't say smartest, because once those rules were written down, and assuming they did work towards survival instead of against it, the next shaman merely needed to lead his people according to those guidelines - not invent more. As for the science aspect, it should be obvious. When mankind was first developing, it had no idea what the hell lightning was, or what those crazy blinking lights in the night sky were. As I mentioned yesterday, answering questions to one's own satisfaction is easy. For those people, unaware as to the sciences of the universe, found it much easier to think that lightning was thrown by some person in the clouds. Crops grew or die not based on weather patterns and luck, but because their sacrifices appeased the gods. When the crops died, it wasn't because of the drought, but because the sacrificed the wrong person - so they sacrificed even more. The idea of sacrifice is a simple one which runs through nearly every religion that has ever existed. The basic premise is that in order to appease a higher being, you have to praise them - why? Do gods have self esteem issues? Well, if they were human-like, they would, and mankind cannot fathom a higher being unlike themselves. And what's the best way to make someone else happy? To praise them. Flattery. But flattery can be empty. Eventually, someone must realize that just going to church is unmeant flattery. It's just lip service. Brown nosing. No, to appease the gods, they needed a real show of humbleness. What better way to show true praise than to sacrifice something important to you? How could that EVER be lip service? So mankind started offing itself to appease gods created in their own, petty image. That's right. We weren't created in God's image, but vice versa. Sacrifice is petty and stupid, and it isn't surprising that it is no longer practiced by most religions. But it used to be. There are several places in the Bible which sacrifice is a prominant and very visual show of dedication to God. If Abraham was willing to murder his own son for God, then surely, God must be worth believing in. That's right, it's the oldest advertising technique in the world - the bandwagon sale. It even goes both ways. You sacrifice to God, but because the New Testament is about a kinder and caring God, it isn't Abraham which sacrifices his son to God, but God who sacrifices his son to us. Is there any greater way to show the humbleness of God - the same God which previously wiped out the planet in a global flood? That whole fire from heaven was too depressing to gain new members to the religion. A new message of acceptance and love, also needed at the time when Jews were being oppressed by the Romans, was needed. What better way to convince people to join your faith and buy into your ideals than to be in the place of God himself and have him sacrifice his son to you? Faith says that I can't say what I just said. Faith says that I cannot even think what I just thought. It says, these are the boundaries of what you believe and you may not step outside of them or I will abandon you. It is fear of that which prevents people from reaching outside of their faith. That's the only conclusion I can think of, because it is nothing sort of paralyzing fear which prevents people from objective questioning of what they believe. I'm not comfortable with that. It makes me uneasy. As I said in the last blog, an unquestioned life is worthless. By the same stretch, if you only ask questions you know the answers to, it is equally worthless. If you only ask questions within the very, very, very small area of faith, you are stupid in the classical sense of the word. You only ask questions which the Bible answers, and you can't question the Bible. Faith will not abandon you. You could throw out your Bible tomorrow and still find warmth and comfort in your faith. If you don't believe me, try it for one week. Just say, okay, the Bible is wrong. I'm going to listen to everything else objectively for one week. I'm going to go to their side because I want to test the strength of my faith. I will read sites on evolution from their perspective and accept them as true. At the end of one week, if you feel that your faith is in any way weakened by this new acceptance of science, you are free to go back. You've made your faith stronger by questioning it. Though I can't agree with the outcome, I applaud the practice. If at the end of that week, your faith is undamaged, perhaps even stronger, then you'll realize that faith does not require the Bible. Faith is a personal thing. It's walls can grow or shrink as far as you will let it. If you believe, your belief does not need to be narrow. Maybe those Sunday Christians which you have always despised as being weak are not the weak ones after all. Maybe they are the strong ones, finding a faith which allows them to live and breathe in a modern world while still having a guiding light which gives them meaning and direction. Maybe it was through questioning the Bible that they became better Christians than those who accept only the Bible. I was in a class once - the Philosophy of Science - and there was a creationist who sat behind me. He was studying to be a teacher (*shudder*). He said, and I'm not kidding, that gravity was only a theory (in the same way that Evolution is "only" a theory). Because balloons float, gravity was false. I'm not suggesting that all creationists are that completely stupid, but that's what their arguments boil down to. Because balloons float, their narrowly understood understanding of gravity fails. If you think that's insane, you should see a creationist try and talk about the fossil record... |
|
|
|
-
8/8/2004 4:07:45 AM
|
|
|
Damn, that guy is certainly up himself. Nonetheless, he raised some interesting points about belief, faith and religions' impact on science and politics. Interpretations of the first two are really on a person-by-person basis, and as I agree with the basics of what he said, (except when he said "Not everyone needs faith" - not everyone needs religious faith, I agree, but I think everyone needs faith in hope), I can't really debate them. Everyone already knows the huge negative impact (especially Christianity in the western world) that religion has had on science and politics (and, therefore, the progression of humanity). I'd like to see someone try and argue against that. I have to disagree with his ideas on relating religion to a placebo though. Placebo: 'A substance containing no medication and prescribed or given to reinforce a patient's expectation to get well.' This implies that there is nothing there, when there is, there is faith. That may not be something tangeble or reliable but its still something. I would've thought religion (like patriotism) is more akin to mass brainwashing than thousands of individual placebos. Woodtopian, I'm not sure if many other people will read the whole thing, it was pretty one-sided and most will become either bored or offended after a few pages. It might be an idea to crop it a little.
|
|
-
8/31/2004 8:05:42 AM
|
|
|
no matter what you believe, you need to have a reason for believing it. whether you're a mormon, atheist, lutheran, scientologist, etc.. you should never blindly follow any system's rules without knowing why. but everyone needs to realize that they have faith. no matter what you think makes you tick, you do have faith in something. because if you don't believe in god, you have to have faith that he is not an entity present in your life/world. if you do believe in god, you have to have faith, as well. there are no airtight arguments for either side. and as a matter of fact, there are no airtight arguments for any religion in the world. and if you claim that you believe in scientific knowledge, you also need to realize that you are basing a lot of your life on faith. a lot of the fundamentals of science are inferred, not proven, and there is a lot about the world that we don't know (and likely never will). so whether or not you know it, you are affiliating with some school of beliefs about something right now. no matter what. and if you claim you have no beliefs about anything, then you have the most faith of anyone i know... because you are putting a lot of trust in your own self and your own capabilities to say that there is nothing in existence bigger than you. sorry about the rampage, but i've had this exact conversation with soooooo many people.
|
|
-
8/31/2004 8:45:47 AM
|
-
Mr. Neil
-
-
-
Joined on 02-22-2004
-
Planet Earth, Galaxy Milky Way
-
Posts 102
-
-
|
"because if you don't believe in god, you have to have faith that he is not an entity present in your life/world." To call that faith is really distorting what it means to be an atheist. In fact, it's really a slap in the face. When someone's an atheists, they don't just pop out of the womb and make a conscious decision to believe or disbelieve in a god. Being atheist means that you don't believe. That's different then having faith. Faith is the act of value and and allegiance. I don't value my disbelief in God, and I don't think I have to join anything in order to not be a Christian. Believing in God is not a default, and I'm not committed to my stance. I simply don't believe. To call atheism faith is like calling any rejection of principle as faith. If I were to tell you that cartoon characters are real, and when we go to bed, all of our creations jump out of the webcomics and dance around, you'd reject that. Is that your faith that cartoon characters don't come to life, or is it merely a rejection? It would be the latter. "and if you claim that you believe in scientific knowledge, you also need to realize that you are basing a lot of your life on faith. a lot of the fundamentals of science are inferred, not proven, and there is a lot about the world that we don't know (and likely never will)." Scientific knowledge (you used the word "knowledge") is not based on faith. It's based on exactly what you said: knowledge. Scientists test things, and therefore they know how certain chemicals react or they know where to look if they're going fossil hunting. Sure there's a lot of inference in science, but that inference is based on knowledge; not on faith. To insist otherwise is to really mischaracterize science in a very disingenuous way. Sure there are things about the world that we're never going to know, but so what? Those of us who are secular aren't worried by that. It doesn't bother us.
 Comic · Community · DeviantArt
|
|
-
9/1/2004 3:20:44 AM
|
|
|
I think science is based on faith. All these experiments scientists do to prove their theories are bound within the limits of those theories. Any failure in an experiment to prove the theory results in new theories. Over the years old theories are debunked and replaced with new ones. How do we know they got it right this time?
|
|
-
9/1/2004 4:19:20 AM
|
-
Mr. Neil
-
-
-
Joined on 02-22-2004
-
Planet Earth, Galaxy Milky Way
-
Posts 102
-
-
|
Spree, God dammit... Open up a dictionary and look up science and faith. You'll see two contrasting ideas. Faith is a value of trust and confidence is something without the necessity of evidence. Science is a process of examining evidence to achieve a conclusion. And unlike faith, scientific theories are never taken on faith. They're constantly tested. Science is very conditional in that what is believed will be accepted until it continues to test positive. Science is conditional. Faith is not. That is the difference. Science isn't supposed to have all the answers right now. It doesn't claim that now, nor has it ever claimed that. Science is about the best of what we know right now. And even science gets something wrong every now and then, it's not a big deal. Science is self correcting. What you won't find in science is the unwarranted necessity to cling to ideals (i.e., faith) when something is proven wrong.
 Comic · Community · DeviantArt
|
|
Page 7 of 12 (170 items)
... 7 ...
|
|
|