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What makes evil evil?

Last post 01-20-2006, 2:53 PM by Jellocube. 107 replies.
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  •  9/19/2004 3:43:55 AM 692929 in reply to 498546

    What makes evil evil?

    I think I agree with Andeny.

    If two different persons have two different visions of evil how would you prove which one was right?

    The only reason why he have similar definitions of evil is because we live in similar societies.

    Imagine Hitler had won WWII, that would mean that killing jews was good and that the aryan race was superiror (which is something we nowadays disagree)

    although murder has always been considerer evil by the human society there often have been exceptions.
    The romans considered death a sport
    the mayans often made human sacrifices
    the inquisition killed people that didn't agreed with them
    the Nazis said jews were the source of evil

    if you lived in any of these societies you wouldn't say those things were evil
  •  9/20/2004 2:38:20 PM 692680 in reply to 498546

    What makes evil evil?

    ...I think I can safely some up the jest of this entire thread in a simple statement.

    IT'S ALL IN YOUR HEAD!
    ...wee?
  •  12/28/2004 2:47:58 PM 720747 in reply to 498546

    RE: What makes evil evil?

    Several people have stated something to the effect of: 'a Christian person would say' or 'the Christian view is' or even 'to Christians sin is going against the Ten Comandments'.

    Just to clarify, from the viewpoint of the Christian, the way one determines what God says is by the Bible and by the Holy Spirit. I point this out so that you understand that only these sources are valid for referencing the standpoint of Christianity, anything else is opinion.

    Sin: Placing yourself, your own 'truth', above God. The root of the distance between man and God is sadly simple acknowledgement of the Holiness of God. When we place ourselves 'First', as we All do, we have Sin.
    Incidentally, Christ Jesus was the only man not to fall to this Sin.  In this he lived a blameless life and was therefore a perfect sacrifice for our sins, (note, Not Sin, sins) thus allowing us to, by acknowledgement of our sins and repenting for them to God, be reconciled through the Christ to our creator, God. 

    sins: actions, from the little white lie to genocide. sins are what we Do, knowing them to be wrong, but doing so anyways using whatever justification. We know the difference between right and wrong and know, as no other creature on earth does, in our conscious, that wrong actions have consequences.

    Humans know right from wrong inherently.  In every culture - Independant and even isolated from one another, the very basics of 'good' and 'evil' are understood.  This cannot be explained away by 'what we were taught' because for that to be true there would have to have been some 'root' of that teaching common to all cultures throughout time.  Humans have started over in too many places and times and yet have always come back to some basic principles.  Right and Wrong, while you may not want to admit it, are in you - understood if not accepted, regardless of if you push them aside or embrace them.

    This is not a judgement, as no doubt the impulsive will want to decry, but if you feel judged by these words you may want to ask 'why?'... especially if you truly believe in your 'truth is relative to individuals' stand. I saw a lot of misinformed views of Christianity and wanted to clarify what we believe.

    I hope this helps clarify this position, and if you like, I'd enjoy discussion.

    Blessings
    Michael

  •  12/28/2004 5:50:50 PM 727906 in reply to 498546

    RE: What makes evil evil?

    Oh my goodness...

    Morality is not based on labeling that which is wrong.  It's about clarifying what is right, and the right thing to do in society is the eliminate harm, because  by its very nature, society is a construct of a group of people whose will is self-preservation.

    You can't say that individual acts are always wrong, because there are going to be conditions where lying, steal, and even killing can save a life.  If lying to an angry husband keeps his battered wife from being beaten again, then lying was the moral thing to do.  It wasn't a wrong act.

    There are reason for why we think it's wrong to be dishonest, because they affect how people trust one another.  No need to consult some otherworldly power.

    I'm not saying that the secular morality system is one that's going to be perfect, but like most things in life, we strive for perfection with the understanding that perfection probably isn't attainable.

    The problem with what you are saying is that for people who are not Christian, it makes no sense, and no amount of insisting is going to change that.  You need a way of expressing reason in morality, or else the moral system you're providing is useless.  It need to be something that everyone can understand, such as secular humanist morality.



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  •  12/29/2004 2:29:17 PM 722717 in reply to 498546

    RE: What makes evil evil?

    "Morality is not based on labeling that which is wrong.  It's about clarifying what is right..."

    Actually that's just flipping the coin.  Honestly consider your statement, how can you clarify what is right without clarifying what is wrong in the process?

    "You can't say that individual acts are always wrong..."

    You are talking about the act of lying... lying is wrong.  So, yes I can say it is wrong...
    To clarify, you are trying to put actions into context of circumstances, I'm pointing out the baseline, the understanding that all humans have of what is right and what is wrong.  Taking the favored example of the battered wife sheltering in your home from an abusive husband at your door.  The number of temptations to lie to that man are numerous, firstly the fear of further harm to the wife and also among them self-preservation from the apparent fury of a crazy man.  This doesn't change the status of the lie.  If it did, it would not be an issue to bring up now would it?  Of course not... so by your example, the very USE of it in this example shows that you unsderstand that the act of LYING is WRONG. The fact is that you are not compelled to lie, even in this example. While it is a complex issue and does seem to box one in, you are in fact never compelled to lie.

    1st Corinthians 10:13 (NIV) "13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it
    This is the scripture which is the basis for the more commonly heard: "God doesn't shut a door without opening another."  What COULD you do?  How about stating: "I don't have to answer your questions, this is my home, please leave."  There are many other ways to avoid conflict and yet not sin (do wrong...evil).
    In fact this leads to some deep spiritual discussion so lets stop there... for now.

    I'm going to jump to the end to address something that caught my attenion.

    "The problem with what you are saying is that for people who are not Christian, it makes no sense, and no amount of insisting is going to change that. You need a way of expressing reason in morality, or else the moral system you're providing is useless.  It need to be something that everyone can understand, such as secular humanist morality."

    What exactly... are you talking about with the first line?  If you are inferring that I am trying to force my opinion then you haven't read what I've said.  I am stating the word of God, not the word of man.  If you do not agree then that is your choice... just as it is my choice to follow what my heart has told me and where the Bible has led me.
    Also understand that for me this is a daily walk, and has only just recently (in the scope of my whole life) begun, I have not always understood the truth of these things in detail, yet I've always known what was right and what was wrong.

    Consider the following example:

    You are driving down the highway at 90 mph in a 65 mph speed zone.  As you crest a hill you see a police car.

    Do you take your foot off the gas pedal?

    Why?

    I submit that most of us would certainly slow down and that it would be because we know we are doing something wrong.  Who says it's wrong?  Well the Law does of course... and the law has consequences, again something we All Know.  How is this relavent?  Because just as we all know the laws of man and the consequences of breaking those laws, so to do we all know that there is a law higher than man, a law that All Mankind Knows.  It is for this reason that all thieves run and all liars feel shame... regardless of if they are caught they know in their hearts they have done wrong, they have done evil.  But I also know this from Scripture as it says in

    Psalm 37:30-31 (NIV): "

    30 The mouth of the righteous man utters wisdom,

        and his tongue speaks what is just.

        31 The law of his God is in his heart;

        his feet do not slip."

    and again in

    Psalm 40:7-8 (NIV): "

    7 Then I said, "Here I am, I have come-

        it is written about me in the scroll. [a]

        8 I desire to do your will, O my God;

        your law is within my heart."  "

    I realize this is drawing long, so I'll address your last points quickly.

    "There are reason for why we think it's wrong to be dishonest, because they affect how people trust one another.  No need to consult some otherworldly power.

    I'm not saying that the secular morality system is one that's going to be perfect, but like most things in life, we strive for perfection with the understanding that perfection probably isn't attainable."

    The thing is, we cannot attain perfection Because we hold ourselves to the standards of man.  The standard which is written upon our heart is written by God... how can I say this?  Well, for one thing the heart Does Want Perfection! Not the flawed standard of man, but the shame that calls for perfection Every Time we do something We Know Is Wrong.

    We still have the choice to slow down.  Or better yet, try to stay within the law.  Why? Well in the example of speeding it is because the safety of ourself and those around us is in the balance.  Speed kills, any state trooper can run you the numbers... the faster people are going at the time of an accident, the higher the percentage of fatalities.  Nothing difficult to fathom there.  In the greater scope of our lives, the reason we need to choose to do right, to turn from evil, is because we acknowlege the gift that has been given and don't want to make our selfish ways the limitation between ourself and a relationship with God.  The forgiveness for our wrongs is within our grasp, all has been done for us short of us Acknowledging Our Part, and Asking for Forgiveness. The problem is that we have already done wrong things, and due to the nature of man, we will likely all make mistakes in the future.

    Without going down another deep discussion path, there has only been one man that has lived life without doing evil. That man was Jesus Christ. He died because the Law that is on our heart condemns us. When we do what we know is wrong it is called sin. Christ Jesus died for all of our sins.

    Everyones. Regardless of their choice to acknowledge this.

    In short, what makes evil evil is choice. If we choose to do what we know is wrong, it causes evil.

    I look forward to any questions, and please understand that I say what I have learned from the Bible and from my pastor who teaches from the Bible. If you believe something different, that is a choice you make, not something I force upon you any more than I was forced to believe as I do. All I would have you do is consider my words, take some quiet time to reflect upon what your heart tells you. If you want to know more seek some guidance from God through prayer.  All praying is is speaking from your heart to God. Out loud, in your head, bowing-standing-jogging... Singing! It matters not to God, all God wants is to have relationship with you. The Bible tells us that through God all things are possible... ask me more on that if you like.
    What do you have to lose?  If I'm cracked and full of hooey then you my friend have nothing to lose....

    Or... What do you have to gain... now that is the real question.  If my words strike a chord, then think of the possibilities of a God that knows you as a person, forgives you as a person, loves you - enough to die for you.  If you like you can call 1-800-633-3446 and learn more.

    May the Lord God Bless you as you consider the real possibility of His Love for You!
    Michael

    email me at wanderingroads@hotmail.com if you want to.

  •  12/29/2004 3:04:12 PM 723379 in reply to 498546

    RE: What makes evil evil?

    How about stating: "I don't have to answer your questions, this is my home, please leave." 

    Congratulations, you got yourself a beating. God may open new doors, but he usually doesn't leaves a sign saying where they are, if you don't have time to find out you'll probably take a shortcut, and, honestly, if you get there unharmed you'll probably won't worry much.

    Grab someone as it borns, hide from the world and the only thing you'll teach him is not do waht it thinks it is wrong, at some point leave it starve for a while, then drop it at a markplace. Do you think it would not steal food because it was wrong? no it would run to the nearest stand and got all the food it could carry and wouldn't worry a bit about it. Why? because you never told him that stealing was wrong.

    about the speeding. the human law sets speed limits, you slow down if you see the police because you don't want to take the consequences and getting a fine.

    All the basic laws are built upon what is better for society, and her I agree with Spree, for it to work we need each other, and that also means trust each other, if you're affraid someone will kill you, then you will want to go away from it, thus expelling him from your society. the same apply to everything else you consider a sin.

    God may have many names and many faces, curiosly the only one you seem to know is the one that was in a book written by humans, It does not matter how right it may be, but for once try to think also with your brains.

  •  12/29/2004 3:41:17 PM 727910 in reply to 498546

    RE: What makes evil evil?

    I said: "Morality is not based on labeling that which is wrong.  It's about clarifying what is right..."

    You said: "Actually that's just flipping the coin.  Honestly consider your statement, how can you clarify what is right without clarifying what is wrong in the process?"

    Absolutely incorrect.  You need to clarify what values are before you can state what is wrong.  Unless you can say that there's some value to human life, then it would be meaningless to say that murder is wrong.  If you say that murder is wrong because if violates a human value, then you've go something.  Without reason, you have an unsupportable assertion.  You need to start without a foundation before you go building the structure.
    Without reason, you have something that is amoral.  Acts which are deemed right regardless of value.
    In the words of Steven Weinberg, "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."


    You said: "You are talking about the act of lying... lying is wrong.  So, yes I can say it is wrong... To clarify, you are trying to put actions into context of circumstances."

    Yes, because circumstances dictate the morality of an act.  You can't have absolute morality, because such a system would be incapable of improvement.  It's a dispicable and unreasonable expectation.

    You said: "I'm pointing out the baseline, the understanding that all humans have of what is right and what is wrong.  Taking the favored example of the battered wife sheltering in your home from an abusive husband at your door.  The number of temptations to lie to that man are numerous, firstly the fear of further harm to the wife and also among them self-preservation from the apparent fury of a crazy man.  This doesn't change the status of the lie."

    Yes it does, actually.  It becomes a good act, and if you were moral, that's what you would do.  I'm flabbergasted that you would consider the act wrong.


    You said: "If it did, it would not be an issue to bring up now would it?  Of course not... so by your example, the very USE of it in this example shows that you unsderstand that the act of LYING is WRONG."

    No, I said that lying has a consequence, and there are reasons that we shouldn't do it, because it affects how people trust us.


    You said: "1st Corinthians 10:13 (NIV) '13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it'
    This is the scripture which is the basis for the more commonly heard: 'God doesn't shut a door without opening another.'  What COULD you do?  How about stating: 'I don't have to answer your questions, this is my home, please leave.'  There are many other ways to avoid conflict and yet not sin (do wrong...evil).
    In fact this leads to some deep spiritual discussion so lets stop there... for now."

    You would smartmouth to a sociopath and get him angry.  I would lie to the man and do what it took to protect the woman and make him go away.  You would be so stuck in your ways of absolute morality that you would take the chance of causing more harm just so you could avoid breaking a commandment.  That's very amoral, if you ask me.  It matches the point I made with the Weinberg quote I made above.
    I'm making a point about circumstances, and given the circumstances, the best thing to do to avoid harm would be to lie.  I'm entertained that you brought up the word "spiritual".  That word has no positive definition.  Usually the word "spirit" is used in a connotation that means otherworldly or non-material.  This is not a definition.
    Interestingly enough, when people use the word "spiritual", they usually use it in place of other more coherent words such as emotional or philosophical.  If there's some other context in which you're using the word, then please explain.  Otherwise, there's no need to use the word.  We're already having a philosophical discussion, and there's no reason to bring emotion into it, because emotion has no attachment to reality.


    You said: "If you are inferring that I am trying to force my opinion then you haven't read what I've said.  I am stating the word of God, not the word of man."

    I did read that, but I don't agree that it's the word of God.  I think it's the word of man which is STATING that it's the word of God.  It would be circular to assume that God wrote the Bible just because the Bible says so.

    "Consider the following example:

    You are driving down the highway at 90 mph in a 65 mph speed zone.  As you crest a hill you see a police car.

    Do you take your foot off the gas pedal?

    Why?

    I submit that most of us would certainly slow down and that it would be because we know we are doing something wrong."

    That example has nothing to do with morality at all, and I'll tell you why.  The reason for taking the foot off of the gas pedal is because of the consequence of getting the ticket.  The person was already doing something wrong, and it continuing to do something wrong by trying to cover up for it.  If that person was moral, they wouldn't have been speeding in the first place.  They wouldn't slow down when they saw the cop.  They'd slow down when they saw other motorists, because it's the other motorists that the driver is putting in danger.
    It is a moral act to preserve the lives of people who have the will to live.  It is not moral to slow down for a cop to avoid a ticket.

    Poor example.


    "Who says it's wrong?  Well the Law does of course... and the law has consequences, again something we All Know."

    This is a rather naive way of looking at this.  The laws themselves are put in place with the same principles that I was talking about.  Consider why the law exists in the first place.  To protect human life.
    Just look at the side of the squad car.  Does it say, "To fine and persecute"?  No, it says, "To serve and protect".  That's the humanist philosophy that is transcendant in human culture.  We all have that value, and that's what laws are in place for.  This goes back to my first statement.  You can't just say something is wrong unless you start with a foundation of what is right.


    "The thing is, we cannot attain perfection Because we hold ourselves to the standards of man.  The standard which is written upon our heart is written by God... how can I say this?  Well, for one thing the heart Does Want Perfection! Not the flawed standard of man, but the shame that calls for perfection Every Time we do something We Know Is Wrong."

    That's not the reason.  We cannot attain perfection, because circumstances are always going to vary.  It's the very reason why we can't have absolute morality, because as my example shows, "Thou shalt not lie" is not applicable in all circumstances.  Heck, there were people in the Bible who were honored for lying.  In the book of Joshua, Rahab lied to hide God's people.
    Morality is situational.  A single act cannot always be wrong in all circumstances, because then we would lack the capacity to reason.


    "We still have the choice to slow down.  Or better yet, try to stay within the law.  Why? Well in the example of speeding it is because the safety of ourself and those around us is in the balance.  Speed kills, any state trooper can run you the numbers... the faster people are going at the time of an accident, the higher the percentage of fatalities.  Nothing difficult to fathom there."

    Congratulations.  You just stated something that is humanistic.  Speeding kills.  We need to protect human lives.  That is the foundation for morality.  Thank you for proving my point.


    Skipping the preaching...


    "What do you have to lose?  If I'm cracked and full of hooey then you my friend have nothing to lose....

    Or... What do you have to gain... now that is the real question."

    The problem with that statement is that it's an argument based on idealism, which is not a very good argument.  What we want to be true and what is actually true are two different things.  Our quest for the perfect morality system will not cause an omnipotent being to pop into existence and provide us with one.
    As rational human beings, we have to work with what we've got.  We have our values, and we have the will to survive.  That more than enough to produce a principle of human morality and construct a system of justice around it.



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  •  12/29/2004 5:06:30 PM 722719 in reply to 498546

    RE: What makes evil evil?

    It seems that I have offended the powers that be, I'll be quick as my previous replies have been blocked or "timed out". Perhaps I'll try back with another user name and try to post a reply that isn't going to be banned due to conflicting with 'popular opinion'.

    Mr. Neil you make some good arguments and if the server allowed I'd enjoy speaking with you more on the subjects.

    Xocrates, settle down. Your arguments are getting so extreme as to be troubling.
    Christians believe that the Bible is the Inspired Word of God and that it comes from either: Directly from the Holy Spirit, first hand accounts of the events as they took place or written accounts thereafter.

    I hope you all have a wonderful new year, sorry that I seem to have offended someone, maybe some reflection on what is so troubling is in order.

    Blessings
    Michael

  •  12/29/2004 6:35:51 PM 727911 in reply to 498546

    RE: What makes evil evil?

    "It seems that I have offended the powers that be, I'll be quick as my previous replies have been blocked or 'timed out'."

    God did it.  It's a sign.



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  •  12/30/2004 8:30:19 AM 722725 in reply to 498546

    RE: What makes evil evil?

    *Laughs* Well... I had formed a response, hit preview and my 'session timed out'. Since it was a Lot less time than I had taken to reply to you (Neil) I was frustrated. When I tried to log in there was a problem logging in... I did indeed take it as a sign, however I suspect less divine intervention than good old fashioned computer glitches. On reflection my accusation was likely unfounded and I apologize.

    Blessings
    Michael

  •  12/30/2004 8:36:03 AM 727912 in reply to 498546

    RE: What makes evil evil?

    Sometimes if I know I have a lot of stuff to say, I write everything in Windows Notepad.  That way, I can just copy and paste it into the topic.

    I've gotten burned way too many times after writing novel-length posts and having everything destroyed by server glitches.



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  •  1/18/2005 4:12:18 PM 726501 in reply to 498546

    RE: What makes evil evil?

    Whoever said that "our ideas of right and wrong come mostly from religion" is absolutely right. As the idea of a Christian God loses its intellectual ground, we shouldn't be too quick to get rid of everything we gained with Christianity. People always say that "religion is just a leftover artifact of our prehistoric minds". This may be true, but it might be an artifact that we're not yet ready to safely throw out.

    Cashiavellis

    Edit: I wonder where PK is?

  •  1/18/2005 4:21:05 PM 731638 in reply to 498546

    RE: What makes evil evil?

    Well, fine.  But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to improve outselves if we can.  There ought to be some put into morality regardless of whether someone is religious or not.

    It really bothers me when people think that morality should be based on a list of rules, because then it ceases to be morality, because you're putting rules above individual value.  That sort of thinking makes it very amoral.
    Good conduct has to be based on our values, otherwise it's meaningless to call it good.



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  •  1/18/2005 6:13:19 PM 726503 in reply to 498546

    RE: What makes evil evil?

    Whether that kind of thinking makes it "amoral" or not doesn't really matter. What matters is the RESULTS. As long as nobody murders me or steals from me, I don't really care whether it's for a moral reason or not. I think that most people could agree to that.

    Now, if we do away with absolute standards like religion, however incorrect they may be, it becomes SO EASY to rationalize all our values away. You know, "Murder? It's not really WRONG, if you think about it." Which is true. Our values HAVE to be based on sets of rules.

    Edit: Your plugging is evil
    NO DEBATING ON THAT

    Signed, Akira

  •  1/18/2005 7:15:38 PM 731639 in reply to 498546

    RE: What makes evil evil?

    But when you say that, you're speaking from your opinion, which is a value based on the need to survive.  You believe it's best to have rules because it's in everyone's best interest to have rules.

    So you actually agree that values are the basis for good conduct.  Like I said, morality has to be grounded on values, otherwise its meaningless to call them good.

    The thing you have to realize is that the rules are based on the values.  The rule is that it's wrong to kill, because the value is that we want to survive.  You can't just make a rule that says it's wrong to kill because it's wrong to kill.

    You need values.  First and foremost.  There is no other foundation to morality.



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